Alternatives for tasty poncirus - tryout in germany/eu?

[flos]

Hello everyone,


Analogous to an experiment already made in the Czech Republic,
in which different origins of poncirus trifoliata were tested and compared for taste and poncirin,
I would like to carry out such a test in Germany, possibly also from other Eu countries.


Of course it is in my interest to be able to compare as many different origins as possible, but the shipping costs should not increase immeasurably.


Do you find the project feasible or do you have criticism or suggestions as to how it could best be implemented?


I know that poncirus + and swamp lemon are already available as alternatives.
However, these are hard to come by and may not be the only origins with an acceptable taste.

[citrange]

Be aware that for poncirus fruit the smell - and presumably the taste - depends greatly on the person doing the tasting and smelling.
I have passed the fruit around groups of about 50 people and found that most find the smell pleasant or at least perfectly acceptable.
However, about 10% find it distinctly unpleasant and another 10% find it truly awful and completely disgusting.

[flos]

Sept 16, 2021 13:08:33 GMT -5 citrange said:

Be aware that for poncirus fruit the smell - and presumably the taste - depends greatly on the person doing the tasting and smelling.
I have passed the fruit around groups of about 50 people and found that most find the smell pleasant or at least perfectly acceptable.
However, about 10% find it distinctly unpleasant and another 10% find it truly awful and completely disgusting.

An interesting point that I haven't even thought about yet.
Let's see if I can get a few volunteers at the table to compare my sense of taste.

In the first step it would be helpful to be able to compare different poncirus origins at the same time.
The next steps could build on that.

[ilya11]

Another issue  is that the taste and amount of juice in poncirus greatly depends on season conditions.

Also, in the south it accumulates more sugar and is less acid, while in the north it has more juice.

[flos]

this aspect would certainly have to be taken into account. In Germany, however, this will probably not have such a serious impact. I think it might be worth a try anyway.

[till]

Hello Flos,

I compared a number of Poncirus fruits from Frankfurt botanical garden (one tree), Cologne botanical graden (2 trees), Mainz botanical garden (3 trees), Bonn botanical garden (1 tree), Schalksmuehle (a small viallage) (2 trees), own garden (two trees). The best type was one from Mainz botanical garden. It is probably not better than Swamp Lemon and certainly worse than Poncirus+ but far better than all other fruits I have tested. It is not bitter, has less pine smell and is much milder in taste than average Poncirus. Fruits are jucy, peel as thick as usual. Sticky oils in the fruit, maybe a little bit less than usual. You would, however, not enjoy eating it out of hand. I have it now at home. Fruit quality was all years the same. Another good feature: It never has a second bloom in autumn, not even when grown under glas. So it gets dormant in autumn under all weather conditions. Growth rate is normal. Two hybrids with Vainiglia Sanguigno (one year old) have very mild leaf taste.

[till]

There are two sweet poncirus types arround. I got budwood. They are said to be sweet as a mandarine and savely hardy down to -20°C (-4°F). One poncirus is in fact a Benton F2 citrange. Perhaps the discoverers of these types want to post something here?

I got budwood of a fragrant poncirus last year. Fruit quality is unknown but the woman from whom I got the budwood writes that flowers are strongly smelling. I think I have flowers next year.

So the genetic potential of poncirus is higher than was previously thought. And the idea that all poncirus hybrids are either sour or frost tender is definitely a myth that does not get better because it is reiterated for over hundred years.

[mikkel]

the one sweet Poncirus comes from a collector here in Germany and is a seedling of a Poncirus hybrid, but is very similar in habit to a Poncirus and was therefore mistaken for a Poncirus for 25 years. The plant is hardy like a Poncirus and has survived -20°C (-4°F) . The fruits are sweet according to the owner, unfortunately I could not test this myself yet because my fruits were too old. But there is no bitterness or resin in the whole fruit. The skin was also edible, although bland.

I have done a lot of grafts.

I have a second fragrant poncirus from Kärnten in Austria. It has already flowered with me, but unfortunately it will not flower this year.

[ilya11]

One Polish member of this forum last year sent me some budwood of poncirus-like plant growing in a private garden close to Wroclaw. 

This plant is actually a three stem cluster growing probably from one seed, it survived several winters with -20C without visible damage.

One of the stems bears large fruits, juicy and quite edible.

Last Christmas I got one fruit from him, due to pandemics it traveled a lot through Poland and France, but I was surprised  by its pleasant sweet taste. 

[flos]

Nov 26, 2021 2:19:16 GMT -5 till said:

Hello Flos,

I compared a number of Poncirus fruits from Frankfurt botanical garden (one tree), Cologne botanical graden (2 trees), Mainz botanical garden (3 trees), Bonn botanical garden (1 tree), Schalksmuehle (a small viallage) (2 trees), own garden (two trees). The best type was one from Mainz botanical garden. It is probably not better than Swamp Lemon and certainly worse than Poncirus+ but far better than all other fruits I have tested. It is not bitter, has less pine smell and is much milder in taste than average Poncirus. Fruits are jucy, peel as thick as usual. Sticky oils in the fruit, maybe a little bit less than usual. You would, however, not enjoy eating it out of hand. I have it now at home. Fruit quality was all years the same. Another good feature: It never has a second bloom in autumn, not even when grown under glas. So it gets dormant in autumn under all weather conditions. Growth rate is normal. Two hybrids with Vainiglia Sanguigno (one year old) have very mild leaf taste.

Hello till, 
I like the idea of ​​going through all the botanical gardens and testing the fruit. Maybe I'll manage to visit some in southern Germany next year. Many were closed during the Corona period.

How about if we collect the "best" or special poncirus in Germany, for example, and carry them together? At some point you might be able to select further. Repeatedly and under the same conditions. As has already happened in the Czech Republic.

[flos]

Unfortunately I was only able to get 8 different Poncirus/FD fruits last year. But of these, at least 3 were better than the rest. I couldn't quite confirm the opinion that FD tastes a little better. I think these had a kind of stale aftertaste.
Mikkel pointed out the "ellerhoop" poncirus to me. The juice was a little clearer and almost non-resinous, but plentiful. The "English large" was similar, with a slightly different fruit note but a more resinous scent. In third place was the fruit from a private garden, which also tasted a little better than the others.
I have noticed that poncirus fruits with fewer seeds produce a more pleasant juice taste. Maybe because less pulp gets into the juice when you squeeze it?

[till]

Hello flos,

thank you for sharing your impressions. I also tasted "Ellerhoop" and was not so impressed by the taste. But that may be due to the special condition of the fruit.

Gathering better tasting poncirus types is a good idea. Nearly any botanical garden has poncirus. So there would be something to compare. If you want you can get budwood from the better tasting poncirus from Mainz botanical garden ask me. I saved it for me (of cause :-)).

I was always sceptical when I read that Flying Dragon is generally better tasting. The growth form of Flying Dragon goes back to a single dominant gene, as far a I remember. So it is likely that the various Flying Dragons in the world are not always closely related.

I have a guess why fruits with fewer seeds tend to taste better (according to your experience - I did not check it myself): A greater portion of the resin usually sticks to the seeds. So the fewer seeds you have the less resin is in the fruit. But there will be always some, unless you come accross a superb mutation without any resin.

[flos]

Hello Till, 
for me it was really difficult to describe the little differences directly. In case of the ellerhoop, the juice looked a bit different with a brighter yellow.
Maybe some sign for less resin?

I´m interested in changing budwood (see also the post from the segentrange in Mannheim), of course for the "better PT" from Mainz too.
This year i will search and collect poncirus from the botanical gardens here in the south for example Tübingen, Reutlingen, Wilhelma Zoo Stuttgart (wich is also listed by INRA as PT Wilhelma).
Should we create a list to check off all collected buttwoods from the different sourches? If you want, we could change the fruits in fall too, maybe we could also get the ellerhoop again.
This time i will test the °Brix too.

Did you taste pt flying dragons fruits already?

[flos]

Mar 12, 2022 4:47:56 GMT -5 ilya11 said:

One Polish member of this forum last year sent me some budwood of poncirus-like plant growing in a private garden close to Wroclaw. 

This plant is actually a three stem cluster growing probably from one seed, it survived several winters with -20C without visible damage.

One of the stems bears large fruits, juicy and quite edible.

Last Christmas I got one fruit from him, due to pandemics it traveled a lot through Poland and France, but I was surprised  by its pleasant sweet taste. 

Hello Ilya, 
That sounds interesting!

so another promising random seedling...
Do you have any photos of the fruit or the leaves?
Hopefully the craft was succesfull.

[ilya11]

Original Kinga plant from private garden near Wroclaw



Last season fruit



Fruit that I tasted this winter