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Post by ilya11 on May 5, 2022 2:18:52 GMT -5
For the moment several attempts to transfer early flowering trait to the progeny all failed.
Another avenue to explore could be to produce first its allotetraploids for future triploid crosses.
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jibro
Full Member
Czech Rep. | USDA 6b
Posts: 163
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Post by jibro on May 5, 2022 5:00:11 GMT -5
Ilya what do you think about crossing two different precocious varieties? I can make cross N1 Tri Voss F2 precocious x Fast flowering trifoliate this year...I think it may be a better way to make hybrids with early flowering if precocious PT x non-precocious citrus does not work...or as Mikkel sugested: two different hybrid both with precocious parent and cross them together...
Also, some varieties like Meiwa or Key lime can produce fruits as 2 -3 years old, maybe is worth trying to cross them with precocious PT, but all three have high polyembryony so may be difficult to achieve this.
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Post by mikkel on May 5, 2022 7:58:39 GMT -5
till might join in... He has already a seedling with precocious Pt as pollen donor, as far as I know...
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Post by mikkel on May 5, 2022 8:10:39 GMT -5
there are different early flowering citrus types. I am trying to collect these types to create an early flowering breeding line out of them. I think it is crucial by which genes or how many genes determine the early flowering. If you combine the early flowering trait from different types, you could create something interesting... . but you can also fail completely if the corresponding genes do not match. An interesting example from Brazil: already in F2 with precocious traits As far as I know, the precocious trait of wintersii is lost very quickly in the following generations and is usually not present in F1. However, some genes in this hybrid seem to be complementary to wintersii, so that the precociousness is inherited. Some Rangpur are early flowering and acid free on top...
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Post by mikkel on May 5, 2022 8:17:42 GMT -5
kumin , also has some C35 F2 hybrids that fruited in the 3rd year. Even if i don't think they are in the same way genetically precocious like e.g. prec. Pt , at least they seem to mature faster when grown under the right conditions. I think such types are also interesting for crossing. 4 Season types are also said to have a tendency for precociousness, I don't remember exactly what the connection was and where I read that, but it was a genetic connection. That's why I also collect 4 s types and will cross them with the precocious types as soon as possible.
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Post by ilya11 on May 5, 2022 9:50:25 GMT -5
Ilya what do you think about crossing two different precocious varieties? I can make cross N1 Tri Voss F2 precocious x Fast flowering trifoliate this year...I think it may be a better way to make hybrids with early flowering if precocious PT x non-precocious citrus does not work...or as Mikkel sugested: two different hybrid both with precocious parent and cross them together... Also, some varieties like Meiwa or Key lime can produce fruits as 2 -3 years old, maybe is worth trying to cross them with precocious PT, but all three have high polyembryony so may be difficult to achieve this. I guess all these combinations are worth to try. They all have complex genetics but examples of genetically modified lines demonstrate the feasibility of achieving a dominant trait.
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jibro
Full Member
Czech Rep. | USDA 6b
Posts: 163
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Post by jibro on Nov 20, 2022 11:13:56 GMT -5
Some update: Fast flowering trifoliate dropped all 20 fruitlet again even though it is grafted on strong trifoliate rootstock so I don't want to use this variety for breeding anymore... I am very happy with Sucrena orange, grafted on strong pomelo hybrid rootstock last year with Keraji and NZ Lemonade and it looks like a very early variety, fruits are already almost yellow, and with direct comparison, with Slava Micurina orange in the same condition, it is 3 -4 weeks earlier. I have 2 Sucrena fruits cross-pollinated with a mix of Ichang papeda Ivia and one of my Trifoliate pollen. One Keraji fruit on the same rootstock is still green and looks like a very late variety. I also have one fruit on Chandler pomelo pollinated with Hodonin trifoliate but it is from the last open flower and I had only a very small amount of Hodonin frozen pollen left, so there is not much hope for successful pollination. I think overall Sucrena looks like the best option from all acidless varieties for further breeding, atleast in my condition. I will try to make more crosses next year, Hodonin has more flower buds already so hopefully I will have more opportunities to use its pollen.
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Post by mikkel on Nov 20, 2022 12:57:06 GMT -5
Sucrena pollinated with a seedless I P would be interesting. I have some grafts somewhere.
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jibro
Full Member
Czech Rep. | USDA 6b
Posts: 163
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Post by jibro on Nov 20, 2022 14:30:31 GMT -5
Mikkel, is seedless IP seedless Ichang papeda? If it has viable pollen it may be really good for reducing the amount of seeds, every Ichang papeda hybrid that I saw has too many big seeds...
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Post by mikkel on Nov 20, 2022 17:25:29 GMT -5
yes, it is a seedless Ichang papeda
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Post by ilya11 on Nov 20, 2022 17:57:41 GMT -5
Non pollinated IVIA is seedless.
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jibro
Full Member
Czech Rep. | USDA 6b
Posts: 163
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Post by jibro on Nov 21, 2022 4:08:44 GMT -5
yes, it is a seedless Ichang papeda
Do you know if is this seedless IP consistently seedless even when pollinated or it is as Ilya wrote only seedless without pollination?
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Post by mikkel on Nov 21, 2022 5:39:12 GMT -5
There are some seeds but less than in other I P . Many fruits are without seeds
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Post by pagnr on Nov 21, 2022 17:24:15 GMT -5
I can make no selection on the basis of its phenotype. If I can make no selection I have to keep too much plants and will come to my limits.
I guess you are talking about Trifoliate vs Unifloiate, or other Poncirus characters in the Hybrid seedlings ? Have you also considered screening for leaf oil flavours, ( components ) which may then relate to fruit peel flavours and fruit pulp flavours. You can differentiate many Citrus types from their leaf taste. Lemons vs Limes vs Mandarins etc. Poncirus and Citrange leaves also have their own scent.
Apart from acidity, Poncirus and Hybrids contribute unusual flavours to their fruit. Resinous, rank or off flavours not attractive to Humans and maybe Primates ? Not sure if this would directly relate to acidity, but it might improve fruit flavour ?
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Post by mikkel on Nov 22, 2022 2:01:31 GMT -5
first of all, we are talking about theoretical considerations about the heritability of acidity in citrus. based on the genotype alone. the decisive disadvantage is, of course, that it is only with the first fruit that it is possible to tell whether the desired traits has been achieved or not. this can mean many plants..... for sure. how one implements this or whether one picks something helpful from it is individually different. I would, for example, use other selection methods at the same time to limit the number of seedlings. that the selection/breeding strategies sometimes contradict each other is unfortunately unavoidable, in the end it is always a decision one has to make. but in breeding it is always better to work with as many individuals as possible.
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