Use of Swingle 5 Star as a rootstock?

[figs]

Hello all: I am new to the forum. Where can you get swingle five star seeds to start the rootstock. Is it really common key lime you buy in grocery stores? Thank you

[roberto]

Apr 3, 2020 17:19:38 GMT -5 ilya11 said:

I have never seen bark splitting on 5* rootstock trunks even after the winters when grafted poncirus  had large cracks.

I have your 5* (Voss denies it was 5*) on Poncirus high crafted (1m). Some years ago the Poncirus was severely damaged by deep cracks. The Citrumelo-part was not harmed at all.

[kevin54500]

Nov 25, 2020 11:07:03 GMT -5 roberto said:

Apr 3, 2020 17:19:38 GMT -5 ilya11 said:

I have never seen bark splitting on 5* rootstock trunks even after the winters when grafted poncirus  had large cracks.

I have your 5* (Voss denies it was 5*) on Poncirus high crafted (1m). Some years ago the Poncirus was severely damaged by deep cracks. The Citrumelo-part was not harmed at all.

very interesting Roberto to read this .. citrumelo suffers from what temperature? growth compared to the poncirus rootstock is much faster?

[till]

Hello kevin54500,
you may find answers to most of your questions in the old forum: citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/indexc4ff.php
Ilya has posted a lot of information about his Swingle5Star.
It is fast growing, compartible to any citrus (so far as we know), hardy up to at least -16°C, healthy roots (probably resistant to root rod), has plenty of zygotic seeds, but also nucellar seeds (depending probably on enviromental factors and pollen donor).

Hardiness is, however, dependant on the special climate where a plant is grown. This is true for all citrus plants. Minimum temperature gives you only a first guess how hardy a plant is. It might withstand colder temperatures but may also be severly demaged at higher temperatures. Poncirus, for instance, is a plant adapted to continental climate (hot summer, cold winter, clear seasons). It does not do very well in my cool atlantic climate (cool summer, relative mild winter, unpredictable cold spells in spring, so to say "impure" seasons). I killed a Poncirus tree that stood near a glashouse in a sunny position while another tree is totally exposed to wind and weather but was hardly ever frostbitten. The sun reflection from the glashouse, I assume, broke the first one's winter dormancy too early and it was killed by late frost in spring. The other tree in the less favourable position, as I would have thought, survived unharmed. The cool wind kept it dormant, I assume.
Poncirus is perfectly growing only 30km away from me. There we have low lands and everage temperature is 3-4°C higher than at my place ~500m above sea level. But hardiness in terms of frost resistance is pretty good enough here and there.

This as an examples. Details matter when we speak about hardiness... You can only build on other's data if your climate (or microclimate) is similar. You need own experiments at your special location. It is a great advantage of this international forum that we can compare experiences from different locations. But we are still comparing and gathering data.

[roberto]

Dec 9, 2021 15:03:57 GMT -5 kevin54500 said:

Nov 25, 2020 11:07:03 GMT -5 roberto said:

I have your 5* (Voss denies it was 5*) on Poncirus high crafted (1m). Some years ago the Poncirus was severely damaged by deep cracks. The Citrumelo-part was not harmed at all.

very interesting Roberto to read this .. citrumelo suffers from what temperature? growth compared to the poncirus rootstock is much faster?

I think 5* should be hardy down to -15°. At lower temperatures it will get defoliated I suppose. And yes, citrumelo grows faster than PT.

[poncirusguy]

What about Flying dragon.

[pagnr]

Swingle incompatibility,
I did experience this with Calamondin, several grew very well at first, but the scions died after 4 years.
Similar with Fortunella hindsii, buds took and grew well but scion died after 4 or 5 years.
I think Meiwa kumquat did similar things.
Alternates budded on other stocks from same bud sticks are still alive.
Anyone else had problems with "Fortunella" on regular Swingle ??

Limes and Hystrix seem to like Swingle.

[jibro]

I lost Limequat Eustis and two varieties of hybrid mandarines grafted on Swingle rootstocks after 5-6 years, all grafted parts quickly died and rootstocks resprouted vigorously without any problems, so no problem with roots.
My oldest grafted plants on Swingle - Kishu mikan and two Unshiu mandarines grows without problems so far. There are many reports from field trials about incompatibility of Swingle rootstock, mostly with mandarines.

[till]

pagnr and jibro, are you talking about Swingle Citrumelo or "Swingle 5 Star"? They are not the same!
And as Ilya noted just recently in a private message it is not even clear that Swingle 5 Star is a seedling of Swingle Citrumelo. It was believed to be for many years but the original source of Swingle 5 Star, Bernhard Voss, says that he does not know what Ilya got from him. It is at least definitely not the variety that he called "Swingle 5 Star" (and which later got lost).

[jibro]

All my plants grafted on Citrumelo are from Adavo, I guess they purchased standard Citrumelo Swingle seeds from some big citrus nursery, so my experience is with Citrumelo Swingle aka 4475.

Citrumelo rootstock have some issue with Kumquats and its hybrids and with several mandarine hybrids.

journals.flvc.org/fshs/article/download/86329/83245

Calamondin, ‘Meiwa’ and ‘Nagami’ kumquat trees were grown for five years on several rootstocks in an unreplicated demonstration trial. Calamondin trees on all rootstocks except for Carrizo citrange and Swingle citrumelo grew well and had heavy yields. ‘Meiwa’ trees on Carrizo citrange, Swingle citrumelo, ridge pineapple and sour orange died but trees on other rootstocks generally grew and yielded well. ‘Nagami’ trees on all rootstocks also grew and yielded well with some limb breakage because of heavy crops.

www.researchgate.net/publication/271910385_Budunion_Incompatibilities_and_Asssociated_Declines_Observed_in_Florida_Among_Trees_on_Swingle_Citrumelo_and_other_Trifoliate_Orange-Related_Rootstocks

Stunting and decline of 'Roble' sweet orange [Citrus sinensis (L.) Osb.] trees propagated on Swingle citrumelo rootstock [C. paradisi Macf. x Poncirus trifoliata (L.) Raf.] were observed in commercial groves in several locations. Affected trees showed pronounced budunion incompatibility symptoms. The incompatibility first appears in trees 4 to 5 years old, and a brown stain or groove can be seen by removing bark patches across the budunion. Symptoms occur later in some trees, and initially, only a portion of the union may be affected. Symptoms in the canopy occur several years later and vary in severity. The incompatibility was not associated with a known virus or virus-like agent and is apparently physiological in nature.

Budunion incompatibilities of varying severity were observed in experimental plantings of 'Roble' on several rootstocks, including trifoliate orange, Carrizo and C-35 citranges (C. sinensis x P. trifoliata), and several other citrumelos. Some citranges and citrumelos have remained free of symptoms suggesting that a segregating genetic factor may be involved.

Incompatibilities between Swingle and other scions have also been reported. Notable examples in Florida include 'Murcott' (C. sinensis x C. reticuiata Blanco), 'Pera' sweet orange, and several mandarin (C. reticuiata) hybrids. Growers should be cautious in the future use of Swingle rootstocks with scions where incompatibilities have been observed. Scion-rootstock compatibility should also be investigated for all new cultivars, although delayed expression of symptoms and marked differences between closely related cultivars pose significant challenges for making rapid and thorough evaluations.

[mikkel]

 Swingle 5star from B.Voss:

till : this is the collection that was for sale on "Ebay Kleinanzeigen" at the time

[till]

Thank you, Mikkel! The Swingle 5 Star on the picture looks quite different from Ilya's Swingle 5 Star which makes the matter more complicated. What we have called Swingle 5 Star in tropical fruit forum, in this forum and in the old version of this forum is the type Ilya has made known. He got it from Bernhard Voss but it was mislabbeled. So that what is now called Swingle 5 Star throughout Europe and America is not what Bernhard originally called Swingle 5 Star. The original seems to be rather spurious. Bernhard himself lost it before it could come to fame.

The original Swingle 5 Star from Bernhard Voss is the plant on your picture, right?

Please correct me, Mikkel and Ilya, if I have misunderstood something.

We should keep apart from the mentioned two varieties what has always been called "Swingle Citrumelo". Incompartibilities of "Swingle Citrumelo" need by no means occur in the two (very different) types called "Swingle 5 Star".

[mikkel]

I think for the sake of understandibility 5Star is the name for the one from Ilya, since everyone refers to it when they say 5Star.

Swingle 5Star by Voss is known to almost no one, so there is no need to create new confusion.
The only important point is that 5Star by Ilya is probably not a Swingle seedling. It is only important for the record to know it.

P.S. The one in the photo is the original from B. Voss. It is now in a private collection.

[kevin54500]

hello do you know if all the satsuma with citrumelo dies?

[ilya11]

The story of this 5star  started in 2001 when I ordered and got several plants from B.Voss:

M15 citroncirus x reticulata spec.***** Sanford F2 Curafora (Frey) 59,-DM flowered Feb, 3 fruits, May2002 in open ground
M17 citroncirus x paradisi****** Hybrid 119 USA 37,-DM, small, one new leaf Feb, new growth May
M33 citroncirus (poncirus trif.x c. limon)** Citremon 36,-DM chlorotic, ill with gommose?, survived till May, treated with alliette, started to recover
M22 C.unshiu x poncirus trifoliata*** 38,-DM small
M18 citroncirus x calamondin*** Glen Citrangedin 38,-DM chlorotic, ill with gommose?, treated with alliette, recovered
M23 citroncirus xmaxima"Chandler" ****** Citrangelo Voß 1 44,-DM strong (5*?)
M30 Sämlinge J ****** HRS-899 Ponc.trif.x Changsha 44,-DM ill, gommose?, recovered after alliette, é new growth till Apr2002
M26 Sämling, versch. Selektionen*** Sacaton Citromelo 38,-DM, small, may be Rusk? tag with Rusk found in the pot

What I believed was M23 came with a tag 5* F2 Swingle buried in the pot. At those time I did not care much of what it really was.

The plant was planted without protection in a spring 2002, never was damaged and flowered for the first time in 2010.

Recently I discussed a lot this subject with Bernhardt .

Apparently he lost Voss1, still has another plant labeled Chandlertri (a sibling of Voss1?), but it is completely monopholiate.