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Post by mikkel on Oct 8, 2019 3:01:23 GMT -5
And perhaps the bitter flavor is an antifreeze? I know plants without bitter flavor. I don`t think they are less hardy than others. Just a story: 13 years ago I started breeding tomatoes. The strain I started with was from my grandfathers. Highly susceptical to late blight. Dead by 1st of August. Dead before any fruits ripened. No chance to grow them in open ground. Since then I plant hundreds of plants every year and select for the most LB tolerant types. I always choose naturally crosspollinated fruits from the least suffering plants. I added other varieties and let them grow aside ( but of course I don`t know if they crosspollinated as pollination in tomatoes is mostly selfpollination) Anyway today I grow them outside and most of the years they are healthy. Some years they still suffer from LB but only at the end of the season and not the whole plant.
The only difference to Citrus that I see. it is a tree and not an annual. Numbers is the key. The last 2 seasons all pollinations I made were with Ichang Papeda. I think it could help. But I have only a few seedlings so it will be pure luck if there is something good among them.
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zap
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Post by zap on Oct 9, 2019 3:03:35 GMT -5
I've have Some Early satsumas, that I got for pollen. If I can keep em going? I read all these interesting articles from Europe, and so many of the crosses with Poncirus, or with Ichang papeda, are late fruiting. WTF??
Early early fruit before the frost!
On the Tomato front, I have had problems with, TMV, and black spot. I just did mass plantings, pulled out the weaklings, and by yr 3 I had mostly healthy resistant plants. Had a bad run of Beet Curly Top Virus. Planted 4 times as many seed, pulled 3/4. All weak, or odd, sprouts. Avoid continuous rows. Plant; Tomato tom.. Blocker Blocker veggie Tomato Tom..
Wild tomato's have some super hardy genes, and don't always go sterile in hot weather. But then you have to breed out the empty flavor traits. But they are somewhat adaptable too.
Projects projects.
I'm trying to find someone who can source dessert limes from the very south of their range. That should be the coldest.
I hear they are slightly more resistant to frost. But then others claim they are frost tender. perhaps there is more than one population?
Keep up the good work!
Zap
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roberto
Junior Member
Best Regards from Vienna Roberto
Posts: 92
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Post by roberto on Oct 9, 2019 4:54:27 GMT -5
I know plants without bitter flavor. I don`t think they are less hardy than others. |
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roberto
Junior Member
Best Regards from Vienna Roberto
Posts: 92
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Post by roberto on Oct 9, 2019 4:56:05 GMT -5
Mikkel, you mean Swamp Lemon?
Ilya says it is not completely free from poncirin. |
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Post by mikkel on Oct 9, 2019 15:22:12 GMT -5
roberto I never ate a Swamp Lemon. I had at least 2 different FD and a standard Poncirus from other growers without any bitterness. A tree in Arboretum Ellerhoop had also bitter free fruits, but I only found 1 fruit and need to prove it again with other fruits. Fruits without resin are harder to find.
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Post by mikkel on Oct 9, 2019 15:39:49 GMT -5
Wild tomato's have some super hardy genes, and don't always go sterile in hot weather. But then you have to breed out the empty flavor traits. But they are somewhat adaptable too. Projects projects. I am growing hybrids between domestic x pennelli, domestic x habrochaitus, domestic x chilense in my garden this season. 2 plants of dom x habro have a very nice taste, not like tomatoes, rather fruity. The other siblings are like huge habrochaitus. Too bad that all hybrids have lost the LB resistance of their parents..... dom x chilense have bluish fruits of the beef type. I have not tried them yet. Many volunteers of pimpinellifolium grow in my garden, some of them have doubled their fruit size, probably hybrids..... Yes, projects all the way..... I'm trying to find someone who can source dessert limes from the very south of their range. That should be the coldest. I hear they are slightly more resistant to frost. But then others claim they are frost tender. perhaps there is more than one population? I contacted several people in Australia a few years ago. When it was legal to import seeds. It was not in season, so I forgot later. But the point was that Australia is a huge country. Even the person next to a place where it's supposed to grow didn't see it and had to go there for at least a day trip..... Things seem to be so small from far away  |
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zap
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Post by zap on Oct 18, 2019 3:00:48 GMT -5
I am growing hybrids between domestic x pennelli, domestic x habrochaitus, domestic x chilense in my garden this season. ............... dom x chilense have bluish fruits of the beef type. Are any of your hybrid "Parents" perennial? I have been carrying a clone of GalaPagos gold cherry tomato for almost three years. If they have too many ripe fruit, or the branches get shocked by cold, they send out some sort of Apoptosis/death signal to the roots. Next the roots will just atrophy away. Once it happens it's almost easier to just root branches.
I think a perennial tomato would be a time saver. I've read about some of the softer stemmed solanum, that send up shoots off their roots, but die back at the base periodically. And I know some of the Plants in the Physalis family send out masses of Ryzomes.
One thing I have learned is that Red tomatos and Green tomatos don't necessarily have the same ripening character. It's almost better to cross red to red, Green to green. Green tomato's get nasty when they finally turn red. Not useful to me. The 50/50 crosses with green currant tomatos, were tough and adaptable - but did not soften and turn red/sweet. They were just like those commercial hard green Grocery store tomato's. |
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zap
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Post by zap on Oct 18, 2019 3:06:36 GMT -5
I contacted several people in Australia a few years ago. ........ Things seem to be so small from far away You mentioned Poncirrus without the bitter oil. I KNOW as a kid I used to prune some old trifoliate lemon bushes, that were lemon tasting. I lived in an old gold rush mining town in the California foothills. There were a lot of old specimens of Amazing fruit trees from all over the world, that miners brought with them. Or purchased to remind them of home. It's a resource that is just being bulldozed away. I feel embarrassed to snip off a little branch here or there.. But when I return, everything is scraped away, paved over. I do understand the Aussies. Who want to curtail wild harvesting, because it's impacting wild populations. I found a note online referring to a population of desert limes growing near Melbourne. Then I thought perhaps a gardener who lives farther south in Tasmania would have already sorted out the most frost resistant selection of limes? If I can't have a lime tree that's tough? Perhaps I can source lime bushes that freeze to the ground, and just grow back like willows? I think someone will have seeds and scion this fall.
Blueish fruit reminds me of Potato Fruit. Be safe!
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walt
New Member
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Post by walt on Oct 27, 2019 13:55:35 GMT -5
When growing out an F2 population, as Kumin has done and as I am doing, there will be limited segregation of traits due to linkage of genes on the chromosomes.
I don't know the average number of crossovers per generation in citrus, but in genera I am familiar with, most are about two crossover per chromosome pair per generation.
So I am not expecting good flavor and good winter hardiness (I'm zone 6) to go together for a few generations.
Of course Ponciris+ is a mutant that got rid of the worst of the unpleasantness of ponciris. It is still pretty sour, as I understand it, but there are citrus with single genes blocking acid: Blood Orange, pumelo, Palistinian lime?, and such. One could mix the juice of Ponciris+ with juice from a ponciris hybrid with no acid and get a good juice.
Not my long term goal, but a good step in the right direction.
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zap
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Post by zap on Oct 31, 2019 2:58:39 GMT -5
When growing out an F2 population, as Kumin has done and as I am doing, there will be limited segregation of traits due to linkage of genes on the chromosomes.....most are about two crossover per chromosome pair per generation. .... Ponciris+ is a mutant that got rid of the worst of the unpleasantness of ponciris. It is still pretty sour, as I understand it, but there are citrus with single genes blocking acid: Blood Orange, pumelo, Who has Poncirus+ ??
It sounds a lot like a "Trifoliate lemon" to me? But they are not known to be super hardy.
I searched google earth, and the nice old man who used to serve us Lemonade on Halloween from his "Japanese grapefruit" tree's is gone, the lot is scraped, and a new house sits there now. His grove lives now only in my memory.
Perhaps a kind someone in Europe could Mail me Poncirus+ pollen, if seeds and scion are not allowed entry under current Quarantine conditions here in USA.
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kumin
Full Member
SE Pennsylvania, 45 miles north of Chesapeake Bay, Zone 6b
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Post by kumin on Oct 31, 2019 4:40:51 GMT -5
Zap. in what state are you located? You may have stated in previous posts, I am not aware of. If you aren't located in a Citrus producing state getting Poncirus+ scions shouldn't be too difficult.
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zap
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Post by zap on Nov 1, 2019 19:01:22 GMT -5
I am growing hybrids between domestic x pennelli, domestic x habrochaitus, domestic x chilense in my garden this season. Hey mikkel;
He has quite the collection of obscure Solanum species. Don't know if any are of use to you?
Good luck with those crosses! ZAP
NOTE: I'm sure you are well aware that many Solanum are poisonous mikkel - BUT PERHAPS SOMEONE READING THIS MIGHT NOT BE AWARE. MANY SOLANUM SPECIES ARE POISONOUS.
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zap
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Post by zap on Nov 1, 2019 19:44:19 GMT -5
Zap. in what state are you located? You may have stated in previous posts, I am not aware of. If you aren't located in a Citrus producing state getting Poncirus+ scions shouldn't be too difficult. Yup I need to get some grafting stock. Oregon is an indoor citrus state. (except for a few outdoor Yuzu that are further north than me!)
I have to get rootstock going. I did not want to order ungrafted rootstock for grafted price, so I didn't get any. Uggh!
I have several citandarins, but need to grow them out.
I'm growing most of my cold hardy citrus from seed, so they can freeze to the roots and POSSIBLY grow back. I searched through CCP and found only standard, and Flying dragon trifoliata, + 2 vars out of stock.
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walt
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Post by walt on Jan 24, 2020 13:07:25 GMT -5
I have never tasted Ponciris+, but from what I read, it has little or no Ponciris flavor. I have never read anyone saying it is less winter hardy than other ponciris. So I think the ponciris oil is not an antifreeze.
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Post by mikkel on Mar 12, 2021 4:54:01 GMT -5
Zap, I have 4 different HRS899-F2-hybrids (open pollinated) 899A, 899J, 899F and 899?(maybe H) They have all flowered and fruited. Fruits of 899A are nice and sweet but only 1 Inch in Diameter. 899J has its first fruit (look at the "Cold hardy" Department) F and H do not taste nice. As Bernhard told me, he got the fruits of HRS899 in the late 1990ies and let all the seeds grow. Then tested cold hardiness and kept the survivers. 899J has survived -16°C in France as Ilya reported. It has its first fruit ever in my collection in Vienna/Austria as far as I know. What happened to your 899 varieties this winter? Did they withstand the frost? |
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