zap
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Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Aug 9, 2019 2:06:38 GMT -5
Does anyone know of Improved Cultivars of US-852? I have read that Voss grew out some in Germany and named them HRS-899. (14 yr old data)
They are supposed to be partially Zygotic - that is they accept DNA from pollen. Where many oranges just produce clone Seed. I think Neucellular is the term. (I'm sure I mangled the spelling) So you can Emasculate and pollinate to your heart's content -But most oranges will still just put out Nucellular seeds (think clone/scion) and ignore your pollen.
US852 Citandarin is a pathway to import genes via pollen from Mandarin, Pumello, Oranges, into a cold hardy poncirrus strain -once. It also suggests that you could cross US852 x US852 = F-1, and perhaps get variations in the level of poncirrus-diesel aroma.
If someone has an improved Cultivar? And they could export cuttings?? it could get everyone one generation closer to that 0 deg citrus dream ...
Best wishes, DONALD
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Post by mikkel on Aug 9, 2019 6:51:47 GMT -5
I spoke with Bernhard Voss about HRS899. He stated that it is different from US852. HRS899 is the name of the original plant in Orlando,Fl, he said. HRS899 A and so on are the offspring means F1. I have no idea what is right and I couldn`t find any records on HRS899.
In my eyes it is the best way to mass seed US852 seeds (as any other hybrid) and select for better traits. A practical issue is to manage to find large quantities of seeds and to handle them... A mass selection like kumin did with Citranges is the theoretical easiest way to find improvements but the hardest way to do practically 
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kumin
Full Member
SE Pennsylvania, 45 miles north of Chesapeake Bay, Zone 6b
Posts: 112
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Post by kumin on Aug 12, 2019 14:36:24 GMT -5
Zap, if you are located in the south of the US, you could potentially maintain several seed trees of a zygotic citrandarin. These could be allowed to self pollinate creating segentrandarins (F2 hybrids) as the case may be. If the seed trees are already F2 hybrids the progeny would be F3 generation, of course. This could be done in a greenhouse (at additional expense). Another option is buying seeded fruits or seeds which would be F2 generation.
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roberto
Junior Member
Best Regards from Vienna Roberto
Posts: 92
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Post by roberto on Aug 28, 2019 5:17:09 GMT -5
Zap, I have 4 different HRS899-F2-hybrids (open pollinated) 899A, 899J, 899F and 899?(maybe H) They have all flowered and fruited. Fruits of 899A are nice and sweet but only 1 Inch in Diameter. 899J has its first fruit (look at the "Cold hardy" Department) F and H do not taste nice. As Bernhard told me, he got the fruits of HRS899 in the late 1990ies and let all the seeds grow. Then tested cold hardiness and kept the survivers. 899J has survived -16°C in France as Ilya reported. It has its first fruit ever in my collection in Vienna/Austria as far as I know. |
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zap
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Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Sept 3, 2019 2:44:05 GMT -5
Hi Roberto:
Do you have any seeds? In all honesty, I do not own the property here. (I always ask people if they own before I give them trees, lol)
I have grown many Prunis Var's and am fairly good at grafting them.
I crashed my computer, and lost all my history. -But I had found a sort of entry, by Mr.Voss and he detailed how he had grown out a couple of the citandarin crosses, two had been sweet, and edible. I believe he mentioned the 852, and since he was unsure, he renamed them, but later spoke with the sender over the phone.
I would love to try crossing a sweet 899 Var with another sweet Citandarin. I learned in biology a couple years ago, that when a single genome unzips, because both progeny have chromosomes that are the same length, the genes tend to just pair back up, when crossed back. But if slightly different DNA lengths; they don't always line up exactly, & there is more chance for doubling, or repeats happening along a DNA strand. Then in F-3, and F-4 generations, you might get two pairs of a gene. Double sweetness, double pigment levels, etc. Or the mismatch, could cause loss of a single gene in the strand - (no poncirrus oil?)
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zap
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Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Sept 3, 2019 3:05:58 GMT -5
Zap, I have 4 different HRS899-F2-hybrids (open pollinated) 899A, 899J, 899F and 899?(maybe H) They have all flowered and fruited. Fruits of 899A are nice and sweet but only 1 Inch in Diameter. 899J has its first fruit (look at the "Cold hardy" Department) F and H do not taste nice. As Bernhard told me, he got the fruits of HRS899 in the late 1990ies and let all the seeds grow. Then tested cold hardiness and kept the survivers. 899J has survived -16°C in France as Ilya reported. It has its first fruit ever in my collection in Vienna/Austria as far as I know. I am trying to get a pollen thread started on the site. It's fine to just wait and grow out a few seedlings. Perhaps to later cross them, but pollen could increase the number of offspring by pollinating distant trees - too. It's also matter of trust I suppose. But more offspring means more combinations, more morphs, more flavors, more chances at getting full frost resistance from the poncirrus side. People are so happy to just get 10deg f lower... Supposedly pure poncirrus has survived -20deg f. We can just grow out all our F-2 seeds. Or, or we could double, triple the number of offspring produced, and still grow our seeds out. By also mailing pollen to other growers.
Best wishes, Zap.
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zap
Full Member
Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Sept 3, 2019 3:25:37 GMT -5
Zap, if you are located in the south of the US, you could potentially maintain several seed trees of a zygotic citrandarin. These could be allowed to self pollinate creating segentrandarins (F2 hybrids) as the case may be. If the seed trees are already F2 hybrids the progeny would be F3 generation, of course. This could be done in a greenhouse (at additional expense). Another option is buying seeded fruits or seeds which would be F2 generation.
I am working on that one. I have five US852's. They would be producing pollen in 5 to 10 years? zzzzz
And somewhere in my lost files there is a Youtube video, of a man who purchased a crate of US852 fruit from Stan McKenzie. (your' suggestion) And he describes a substantial difference in some of the fruit. So Stan may have a slightly improved cultivar - or morph, hiding out in his row of 852 trees. Or the poor guy might have just burned out his taste buds, on all that poncirrus oil. Garlic? Gasoline? mm Oh well I always got those confused anyways ??
I have access to a vacant lot for a Year or two, and I am thinking about growing out hundreds of Flying dragon seedlings, as rootstock. At worst I would just create an impenetrable hedge. Hmm .. sounds better all the time lol! And I could always donate the extras to the agrarian society?
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Post by ilya11 on Sept 3, 2019 7:16:45 GMT -5
Or the poor guy might have just burned out his taste buds, on all that poncirrus oil. Garlic? Gasoline? mm Oh well I always got those confused anyways ?? Zap, Please do not forget to take lithium  |
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zap
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Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Sept 3, 2019 12:13:46 GMT -5
Or the poor guy might have just burned out his taste buds, on all that poncirrus oil. Garlic? Gasoline? mm Oh well I always got those confused anyways ?? Zap, Please do not forget to take lithium Why lithium? Do you think it is crazy to suggest people contribute pollen for hybridization? Or just crazy to think they would co-operate?? (stop that. stop cooperating. that's just .. nasty) ??
- Pollen weighs practically nothing; so cost is only the letter postal rate.
- Pollen can be stored in the freezer (without liquid nitrogen) for a year. So if you miss flowering by a week or two, there is always next year ... urgggh! I hate it when I miss...
- The tiniest bit of pollen can contain Thousands of gametes, or produce thousands of offspring.
- The traits of one tree may be shared with hundreds of trees through pollen, whereas it would be impossibly hard for most of us to perform hundreds of hybrid crosses onto one recipient tree.
- There might be one decent soul out there who deserves the gift. Perhaps?
- Bernard Voss did an awesome service for growers, and his work needs to be continued!
- Pollen as a lifeboat - It can only save 50% of the traits, by exporting them. - Into a zygotic recipient tree. (A Zygotic Zygote more lithium please ha-ha) And later produce 100% zygotic seedlings. Versus a nucellular Orange, 100% of crosses = 0.0% results.
- Pollen has very few agricultural restrictions - since it blows in the air at ALL TIMES.
Best wishes,
Zap
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zap
Full Member
Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Sept 24, 2019 18:09:34 GMT -5
Zap, I have 4 different HRS899-F2-hybrids (open pollinated) 899A, 899J, 899F and 899?(maybe H) They have all flowered and fruited. Fruits of 899A are nice and sweet but only 1 Inch in Diameter. 899J has its first fruit (look at the "Cold hardy" Department) F and H do not taste nice. As Bernhard told me, he got the fruits of HRS899 in the late 1990ies and let all the seeds grow. Then tested cold hardiness and kept the survivers. 899J has survived -16°C in France as Ilya reported. It has its first fruit ever in my collection in Vienna/Austria as far as I know. RE:: 899 series
Is there a source for 899 series seed?
Is Mr.Voss still in business?
I'm growing out 4 US852's but I need to do what Bernard did, and plant hundreds of US852 F-2 seeds, and grow them all out. Perhaps gift them to many people and just accept that it will happen in their lifetime, not mine...
It sounds like you are the leader in frost hardiness, and flavor. Perhaps a cross with a Citramello? For size?
Would it dilute the sugar levels too much?
Be happy, ZAP
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Post by millet on Sept 29, 2019 17:26:49 GMT -5
US852 produces such a high rate of zygotic seed by planting them one could easily go through the alphabet, and then through the alphabet over and over and over.
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roberto
Junior Member
Best Regards from Vienna Roberto
Posts: 92
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Post by roberto on Oct 2, 2019 5:58:09 GMT -5
Is there a source for 899 series seed?
Is Mr.Voss still in business?
I'm growing out 4 US852's but I need to do what Bernard did, and plant hundreds of US852 F-2 seeds, and grow them all out. Perhaps gift them to many people and just accept that it will happen in their lifetime, not mine...
It sounds like you are the leader in frost hardiness, and flavor. Perhaps a cross with a Citramello? For size?
Would it dilute the sugar levels too much?
Zap, no, I don't think there is am source for seed. I am not even shure there will be seeds from my A and J fruits. I am not quite sure if there is any use to follow this way. Most F2 hybrids are less hardy than Yuzu or Keraji Mandarin. And what could be the result of a cross between Citrumelo and 852 or 899? A great tasting Citrus? Don't think so. Why not try new crosses with C. ichangensis? Best Regards Roberto
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Post by mikkel on Oct 2, 2019 6:28:39 GMT -5
I think "one in a million" there will be one or some interesting seedlings. It is a low chance to find it but you never know. I remember a scientist from GBK Gatersleben who says if you are looking for a certain trait, plant a field and you will always find it. She talked about annual vegetables but why should it be different in trees? it is always genetics. I don`t think that parental combination is the most important. If there is segregation it will be more a question of number to find the desired genetic combination. But of course the right parental combination will higher the chance to find it. Kumins cold hardiness trials with Citranges gives me confidence that it is truely possible.
edit: of course the trait must be within the genetic variation of the parental generation.
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zap
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Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Oct 7, 2019 17:18:17 GMT -5
.. .... the trait must be within the genetic variation of the parental generation. So true. I feel existing Offspring of Trifoliate crosses with Sweet citrus in the past, already hold genes for sweetness, and for Trifoliate cold tolerance. But not colder, or sweeter without chance mutation.
It will just take time to select out bitterness, and retain hardiness. And thousands of seedlings. And perhaps the bitter flavor is an antifreeze?
I think Roberto is correct, and Ichangensis could add more cold tolerance genes. But I sense that the deciduous traits of trifoliate orange, are a key to true cold tolerance for citrus.
Perhaps the answer is further out in the citrus family? Outside trifoliata?
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Post by david on Oct 7, 2019 17:41:02 GMT -5
As many crosses and many many years of trying to get the poncirin out.....I think it can not be done. I think the answer to cold hardiness lies within the ponc oil itself and when you lose it you lose your cold hardiness. Good tasting without a poncirus background is a quest that has been elusive for thousands of years and yet remains elusive.
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