till
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Post by till on Dec 4, 2022 7:33:00 GMT -5
Hello! I pollinated Calamondin with C. ichangensis this year. Only a few flowers and so only a few fruits. Yesterday, I sowed the seeds. I am always removing the seed coats of Calamondin seeds and sow the embryos seperately. Now, here the result: I had only a few seeds. As you see on the foto the seeds were almost completely monoembryonic. And most embryos were pale yellow. Green embryos are typical for Calamondin. The pale embryos will be hybrids. So this cross impressively shows how certain pollen can suppress the formation of nucellar seeds and of polyembryony. Calamondin seeds are usually so full of embryos that they burst of them. Poncirus pollen, by the way, also supresses nucellar embryos in Calamondin but produces a much smaller percentage of hybrids. (Hybrid seeds are also pale.)
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Post by pagnr on Dec 5, 2022 3:42:36 GMT -5
That is very interesting. Any other seed characters that also vary after X pollination. Embryo size been mentioned, if I remember correctly. Do you have a prediction about your hybrids ? Will they be monoembryonic, polyembryonic / nucellar ?
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till
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Post by till on Dec 5, 2022 4:20:57 GMT -5
Good question, how the hybrids will be, pagnr. When Calamondin is an F1 cross between sour mandarine and kumquat as seems to be supposed in literature then about 50% of the hybrids will be monoembryonic. If Calamondin is a more complex cross then I would not dare to give a prognosis.
I expect, however, that that my hybrids are at least a bit less polyembryonic than Calamondin because I have read somewhere that hardly any allel in citrus is inherited purely recessivly or purely dominantly.
Another question is how polyembryony could be suppressed in the hybrids given the case that they are polyembryonic. It may well be that the hybrids are - at least some of them - polyembryonic and that this feature cannot be so easily suppressed as in Calamondin. For me it is not clear why Calamondin does not produce many nucellar embryos when pollinated with C. ichangensis. Perhaps because the hybrids embryos are very vigorious and suppress the formation of nucellar embryos. But that is not sure. Calamondin x Poncirus hybrids are not very strong growers as plants, some even grow less strongly than Calamondin. Yet pale embryos after pollination with poncirus are either accompanied by a marginal number of small nucellar embryos or the pale embryo is the only one in a seed. The growth speed of the pollen tube may also play a role. It could be that poncirus and C. ichangensis pollen grows faster than Calamondin pollen so that fertilisation takes place before the programme of nucellar seed production really begins and that it is then supressed because a vital embryo is already present. Hmm, I simply don't know.
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Post by pagnr on Dec 5, 2022 15:15:16 GMT -5
There are advantages if your new hybrid is nucellar/polyembryonic. The seedlings will be clones, so you can distribute and propagate it via seed if you wish. You can replace the plant from seed, without having to replicate the original cross. ( replicating the original cross won't give you the exact same hybrid, as sister seedlings will be slightly different, as will repeat crosses ) Seedlings can renew the plant vigour some years later, and eliminate virus etc. On the other hand anyone you give or sell fruit to can also get a copy of your original strain by growing seed. The original hybrid plant can be propagated by cuttings or grafting. Seedlings can also be grown as insurance. If it is hardy on its own roots, it can be simple to produce a lot of new seedling plants. Potentially thousands of seedlings for rootstocks etc.
There are advantages if your new hybrid is monoembryonic. Seedlings won't be identical to the parent, so you have some degree of variety protection against people growing the seeds from fruit. Self pollinated seedlings will be variable versions of the hybrid plant, that can be examined or selected without having to go through the X pollination process over again. It is easy to get new variations if you want them. The original hybrid plant can be propagated by cuttings or grafting. Tissue culture could be used to renew or eliminate virus, but that is more complicated than via seed.
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till
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Post by till on Dec 7, 2022 4:17:16 GMT -5
Yes, these are the options I see. I am not sure at the moment what I will do with the hybrids. I assume that they will be culinary interesting. I like the strong mandarine flavour of Calamondin very much. And I also use its peel. The fruits of my Ichang Papeda were not bad, also. Well, the peel was not edible (too bitter) but peppery what is interesting (though Keraji is better). The pulp was very sour and bitter yet the bitterness was not of a disgusting kind but somewhat like that of grapefruits which is ok for my taste. I would not recommend Ichang Papeda fruits for eating but can well imagine that hybrids are quite tasty. So it might be that the hybrids turn out to be something pretty good as they are. But I also think about further crosses with them, backcrosses to C. ichangensis for the sake of hardiness, crosses with other hardy citrus. I do not care about polyembryony very much at the moment. If they turn out to be polyembryonic I can make further crosses via male lineage. So it will be possible anyway. I am a bit flexible in my choice of motherplants.
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Post by pagnr on Dec 8, 2022 15:49:14 GMT -5
The fruits of my Ichang Papeda were not bad, also. Well, the peel was not edible (too bitter) but peppery what is interesting (though Keraji is better). The pulp was very sour and bitter yet the bitterness was not of a disgusting kind but somewhat like that of grapefruits which is ok for my taste.
I wonder what are the traditional uses of the Ichang Papeda fruit. I heard it is well known and used in parts of Vietnam and close neighbouring areas.
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till
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Post by till on Dec 12, 2022 13:14:01 GMT -5
Yes that would be good to know what they do with Ichang Papeda. Mine had enough pulp and not many seeds - probably due to cross pollination. But when they are full of seeds you can only use them as spice, do you?
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Post by mikkel on Dec 13, 2022 2:11:02 GMT -5
As I understand it Ichang Papeda is a non cultivated species. Some types show some sign of hybridisation with domesticated Citrus but probably by accident and not intentionally. But it is just a guess.
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Post by pagnr on Dec 13, 2022 16:50:13 GMT -5
I pollinated Calamondin with C. ichangensis this year.
So that is ( Citrus X Fortunella ) X Papeda in the old terminology, and still by their positions on the Citrus Family Tree.
It will be interesting to see if you get a wide variety of offspring, or clearly related similar F1 types ?
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till
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Post by till on Dec 15, 2022 17:08:46 GMT -5
Yes that will be interesting. It is not yet time to speak about fruits but one thing is clear already: Calamondin x Poncirus shows some variation in leave size and quality of the roots.
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Post by pagnr on Dec 16, 2022 3:59:44 GMT -5
It is not yet time to speak about fruits but one thing is clear already: Calamondin x Poncirus shows some variation in leave size and quality of the roots. Yes I was thinking about the young seedling characteristics too from the ( Citrus X Fortunella ) X Papeda. Possibly the Merdaka lime is comparable ? Kalamansi X hystrix www.21food.com/products/merdeka-lime-494089.html
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till
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Posts: 160
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Post by till on Dec 16, 2022 14:16:25 GMT -5
I think Merdaka Lime is different. Although both, the Kaffir Lime and Ichang Papeda, are papedas their fruits are quite different so will be the hybrids.
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Post by mikkel on Jan 9, 2023 6:22:07 GMT -5
These are seedlings of abchasian Orange and Ichang papeda. I don`t know if abchasian Orange is nucellar. But in these seedlings I see mainly true hybrids with I P.
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Post by ilya11 on Jan 9, 2023 7:43:31 GMT -5
What is "Abchasian orange"?
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Post by mikkel on Jan 9, 2023 13:02:15 GMT -5
It is Abchazskij městnyj at Adavo. Translated word by word abchasian town.
Might be a hint of its origin?
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