Taste of Poncirus hybrids - an experiment with surprise

[till]

Hello!

A while ago, I realized that it is possible to make an excellent lemonade from Poncirus juice when you put the juice in an open glas for one night. The pine flavour will have disappeard the next morning and the resin will be sunken to the ground so that it can easily be separated from the rest of the juice. See my threat in the old forum: citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopic1613.php (15th Nov 2013)

I tried to do the same with the juice of a Sanford Segentrange that I found in a certain park in Germany years ago. This plant was just labbeled "Sanford Segentrange", is without exception trifoliate, well growing, has flagrant flowers and fruits as big as oranges, the pulp of which has the texture of Poncirus pulp but contains less seeds and less of the pine flavour that Poncirus fruits have. The juice is abandont, sour and in fully ripe fruits more agreeable than Poncirus juice but still resinous and definitelty influenced by Poncirus. The peel has a horrible bitter taste. I think the cultivar has never been named.

Now, I put the juice in an open glas for one night and expected that I can make a good lemonade from it the next morning. But the result was surprising: The juice was extremly bitter the next morning. Imagine the worst tasting medicine you have ever drunken, you would find the juice much worse. Extremly bitter like the concentrated bitterness of Pumelo peel or vermouth.

How can it be that the same procedure produces a very tasty Poncirus juice but an extremly horrible Segentrange juice? My conclusion was that the bad taste of my Segentrange juice is chemically differently composed than the bad taste of Poncirus juice which means that it is not just inherited from the Poncirus elder but - more likely - from Oranges genes or from the combination of Poncirus and Orange genes. It might for instance be that the bitter taste of Pumelo peel is inherited via the orange parent and than expressed in the juice instead of the peel. The matter seems to be complex, however, for the fresh juice of my Segentrange is not worse than Poncirus juice but in most fruits better than Poncirus juice.

My conclusion for breeding Poncirus hybrids: When you want better tasting hybrids look for the right combination of Poncirus AND the citrus elder.
My suggestion for us here: Please try the same that I did with Citrandarins and let me know if the result is the same as with my Segentrange. Depending on the results we might get a better idea from where the bad taste in Citranges and Segentranges comes from.

At any rate, it is clear that Poncirus alone should not be blamed for it.

Till

[ilya11]

You are right, bitterness inherited from poncirus and orange are different.

Poncirus contains naringin and poncirin that are bitter as such, while oranges have very low naringin content but some of them like navels and Shamouti contain tasteless  Limonin hydroxyacid lactone that upon storage due to the action of acid and specific enzyme containing in juice is converted to  the very bitter limonin.That is why navels are not used for industrial juice production.

Most probably Sanford has both poncirin and limonin precursors and its juice is becoming more bitter upon storage.

[till]

Thank you, Ilya! I knew that you have a scientific explanation for the phenomenon. :-)

[flos]

Hello till,

can you tell me where the park is in germany? maybe I'd be around sometime.

[till]

Hello flos,

it was from "Luisenpark Mannheim". It was potted and can only be seen in the warm seasons. If you are only interested in the segentrange, I could send you budwood. My tree died because of its tender sweet orange rootstock but I have a copy on Swingle Citrumelo. I still do not really know if I need it or not for my breeding plans. But one aspect of this segentrange is really impressing: Its vitality. The first grafts on Clementine and sweet orange seedlings were so vigorious that they budded without being forced and grew so strong that the rootstocks never attempted to produce own twigs thereafter. I got a little bowl of big fruits from my 2m high tree although it was already declining and had only yellowish leaves the whole year because of rootproblem of the orange rootstock. Fruits ripen as early as poncirus fruits (at least under glas). Leaves are very thin but large as Swingle leaves. One reason for its good metabolism rate?

If you are around in Germany, you can also visit me :-). I live in the mid-west near "Aachen".

[flos]

Hello till, 
mannheim and achen would be southern enough for me. When i´ll get near achen sometime i surely will write you a message.
I´m interested in budwood from segentrange. For breeding it doesn´t sounds so bad isn´t it?

[till]

Flos, you are welcome! I have a greater number of seedlings from this segentrange. I pollinated with precocious poncirus, normal poncirus, Swingle 5 Star, African Shadock x poncirus. There are differences in growth rate and minor differences in leave form. But I am not yet sure which of all these seedlings are hybrids. Most look quite similar. I hope I see clearer in this second year. Seeds were mostly monoembryonic. But monoembryonic does not mean zygotic.

By the way, Trifeola seems to be a every good variety if you are searching for a motherplant. I pollinated it with Batumi Citrumelo. All seeds that germinated were monoembryonic and seedlings look quite different. Its a pitty that most seeds of Trifeola got rotten. My mistake. Storage was too long and culture medium wrong.

[flos]

Apr 4, 2022 14:00:52 GMT -5 till said:

Flos, you are welcome! I have a greater number of seedlings from this segentrange. I pollinated with precocious poncirus, normal poncirus, Swingle 5 Star, African Shadock x poncirus. There are differences in growth rate and minor differences in leave form. But I am not yet sure which of all these seedlings are hybrids. Most look quite similar. I hope I see clearer in this second year. Seeds were mostly monoembryonic. But monoembryonic does not mean zygotic.

By the way, Trifeola seems to be a every good variety if you are searching for a motherplant. I pollinated it with Batumi Citrumelo. All seeds that germinated were monoembryonic and seedlings look quite different. Its a pitty that most seeds of Trifeola got rotten. My mistake. Storage was too long and culture medium wrong.

Hello Till,

that is dreamlike. I wish I had so many possibilities. I really have to test your possibility of pollen storage. Mostly the plants do not bloom at the same time.



Do you treat your seeds with

bleach? It has always worked pretty well for me so far.



I have no experience with Trifeola yet. Does it have potential?

[till]

Bleach? I have not thought about it although I know from mushroom growing that it kills mushroom spores. You mean H2O2 (hydrogen peroxid)? What concentration?

Regarding Trifeola: I read many positive comments on the taste of its fruits. But I cannot confirm it because fruits ripen to late, so that my fruits (many indeed) fell off somewhat unripe when temperatures droped in autumn. My fruits were jucy but sour and way too bitter. Seeds were not always totally ripe but most were ripe enough to germinate. What I can say is that Trifeola is a beautiful plant, blooms willingly, produces great amounts of pollen and has monoembryonic seeds at least when pollinated with Batumi Citrumelo. I would not recommend Trifeola for somebody who wants to harvest edible fruits under glas in zone 7b (with short vegetation period). Then better choose Batumi Citrumelo, Morton or others with which I have no personal experience. (My Morton and Batumi were great in the same year.) But the genetic potential of Trifeola in breeding is probably high. I mean what does it matter when its fruits ripen late when a Trifeola cross may happen to inherit early ripening from the Poncirus part in Trifeola? I also doubt that its bitterness is fully passed on to F2 hybrids when the crossing partner is not bitter.

[flos]

I read that somewhere in the forums. I took a bleach with 1% concentration (Danklorix, if you are interested I can write you how I diluted it, I have to look). This buys some time and the mold is suppressed.

So Trifeola sounds good too. The problem with the whole thing is, the more candidates come into question, the faster and bigger the collection (and passion) grows.

[till]

Thank you for the tipp with Danklorix. So 1% of it in water?

Space, yes, my main enemy, too. I was at first glad for any variety I could get and for any flower I got. Now, not anything has already flowered but I have already the problem that I have too many possibilities to cross plants but still do not know what is really promissing. I have my considerations but a breeder also needs luck, simple stupid luck. How much I have had already I will know in a few years, years in which I need space. But lets be honest we want the challange, don't we?

[flos]

For 1% chlorine bleach take 36ml danklorix and 64ml water (or 360ml danklorix and 640ml water)
I drenched the seeds for 10 minutes and then washed them. I don't know from which forum it was but for me it worked.

The problem with crossing is for me to label it correctly. So many plants and much more flowers.

[till]

Thank you for the details!

Yes labbeling. Takes more time than the actual crosses.