Poncirus taste comparison

[ilya11]

Oct 21, 2020 10:41:18 GMT -5 millet said:

Better tasting poncirus and worse tasting poncirus all fit into a group of fruit labeled bad tasting citrus.

Is this based on the firsthand experience?

[jibro]

As someone who tested 9 different poncirus fruits I can tell that taste vary from almost unpalatable even after dilution with water to let's say "I am able to eat one fruit without any hesitation and I want another"
Today I've read: NOTES ON CITRUS HYBRIDS By HERBERT J. WEBBER, (published in 1905) zenodo.org/record/1948874
He suggested selection of poncirus with better taste as best chance for hardy citrus with good fruit, unfortunally none probably tried this for last 120 years...

Ever since the orange industry was established in this country, more or less severe freeze shave occurred at intervals, showing the necessity of securing hardy varieties. These conditions resulted in growers making observations and selections of apparently hardy seedlings. All over Florida the sweet seedling orange has been in great favor until recently, and very many groves even now are simply sweet seedlings of unnamed varieties. The various freezes which have occurred have thus always given an opportunity for a test on a large scale of the hardiness of sweet seedling oranges, and any striking variation toward hardiness would be immediately noticed. We thus have an experiment on a grand scale in the production of a hardy orange by seed selection, as several million seedlings have doubtless come under the careful observation of growers. While many varieties have been selected out and claimed to be hardy, nevertheless none of them have proven to be more hardy in any marked degree than the ordinary orange.The hope, therefore, of securing markedly hardy varieties by the selection of the pure sweet orange is very remote.

The most promising method for the production of such a hardy edible fruit by means of selection would doubtless have been to

select the trifoliate orange for quality of fruit rather than to select the common orange for increased hardiness. No experiments have been carried on in the selection of the trifoliate orange, but there is certainly considerable variation in the quality and shape of the fruits produced by different trifoliate seedlings, so that a continuous selection through a number of generations would doubtless result in the production of a much improved quality of fruit combined with a reduction in the number in seeds.

[kumin]

jibro, I'm located in zone 6b. I have second generation hybrid citrange seedlings screened for extreme cold hardiness, a few approaching trifoliate hardiness.

These were selected for extreme hardiness out of an initial population of +/- 20 000 seedlings. At 8 months of age, approximately 12 of them survived temperatures of -25°C with a portion of stem alive.

Out of the 20 000 seedlings about 3 000 were zygotic plants. Many of the 3 000 were weak and lacked vigor. Others were as vigorous as the F1 nucellar seedlings.

The majority of the 12 best survivors strongly favor their trifoliate parentage. However, one is monofoliate, another 2 have mixed leaf types. These trees will be 3 years of age by April 2021.
I plan to allow these trees to open pollinate, as well as be crossed with Poncirus+, 5* citrumelo and TaiTri as parents to create additional crosses.

[jibro]

You have made a very interesting experiment and at least the monofoliate one looks promising if it will survive in long term in zone 6. I think this plant may combine better taste than all 50% poncirus hybrids with poncirus hardiness.

I'm interested in 75% poncirus hybrid too, I have 5 seedlings from my cross FD" VS" x Citrumelo 5* but I still don't know if they are hybrids or not.

I have grafted plant of Citrumelo 5* x FD from Ilya and my first impression after one season is that they are always starting to grow first from a sample of 10-15 others budwood grafted at the same time. This is probably not good for staying dormant during the warmer period in winter but we will see. I will test this 75% poncirus hybrid next winter with other 50% poncirus hybrids grafted on one FD rootstock and I hope it will be the most hardy... at least to - 18°C(-0.4 F)...

FD rootstock grafted in September 2020 for testing cold hardiness of 50% and 75% poncirus hybrids

[kumin]

jibro, the monofoliate plant's leaves have a more pleasant taste and fragrance than it's more Poncirus-like siblings. It's also a bit less hardy and enters dormancy later.

[zap]

Oct 22, 2020 7:30:22 GMT -5 roberto said:

Oct 21, 2020 10:41:18 GMT -5 millet said:

... poncirus and worse ... all fit into a group of fruit labeled bad tasting citrus.

It is not Poncirus that tastes bad -it is your nose that makes it smell bad.  It is the same with Pawpaw: some hate it some love it. For people in cold areas Poncirus+ is the only way to have a citrus in their garden and get somewhat useful fruits.

Paw paws also utilize flies for pollination.  The flowers really STINK! 

Poncirus appears to have abandoned attracting herbivores to spread it's seeds?   PT can have woody pulp, thorns, repulsive kerosene-like smell. Perhaps to repel animals?

I think wild PT tastes and smells awful.  But I do like the lime like flavor in some domesticated PT varieties! 

[zap]

Ilya: ?have you ever read about a Japanese germplasm repository, that has many Variety's of Poncirus? It was just mentioned in passing during a review of new Japanese citrus being developed. -but that was before I lost my Operating system in my PC.
Are Poncirus+ Neucellular? Can we just clone them by sprouting their seed?
And is Poncirus+ as cold tolerant as wild Variety's of poncirus?

UC riverside has Cleopatra mandarin x Poncirus... it is supposed bear in Nov. So less frozen fruits.

[mikkel]

NARO is one such gene bank. They have several Poncirus. But not the Accessions you read about in scientific papers, like e.g. the thornless Poncirus

www.gene.affrc.go.jp/databases-plant_search_char_en.php?type=61

[ilya11]

Oct 26, 2020 4:01:19 GMT -5 zap said:

Ilya: ?have you ever read about a Japanese germplasm repository, that has many Variety's of Poncirus? It was just mentioned in passing during a review of new Japanese citrus being developed. -but that was before I lost my Operating system in my PC.
Are Poncirus+ Neucellular? Can we just clone them by sprouting their seed?
And is Poncirus+ as cold tolerant as wild Variety's of poncirus?

UC riverside has Cleopatra mandarin x Poncirus... it is supposed bear in Nov. So less frozen fruits.

I do not know how hardy it is, it comes from zone 8 climate, also in my garden any poncirus is perfectly resistant.

From several dozens of its seeds all gave single germinations, but of course it does not mean that they are all zygotic.

This year I made a pollination by citron to see if this produce hybrids or nucellar seedlings.

[kumin]

My 7 Poncirus+ seedlings showed no Winter damage during the past Winter. However, the Winter was unusually mild, low of 10°F ( -12C). The upcoming Winter may be colder and give a better indication as to it's cold hardiness.

In regards to zygotic vs. nucellar seedlings, 1 of the 7 seeds produced 2 embryos, possibly one zygotic and one nucellar. At this point it appears to have at least some nucellar seedlings.

[till]

Ilya kindly sent me some Poncirus+ seeds. The seedlings are still small (one year old) so it is difficut to discern zygotic ones. But three out of 25 are clearly different than the rest. They have more serrated leaves. So these at least are zygotic.

[fructose]

Is there a source of poncirus+ seeds or budwood stateside?

I'm very curious of all these palatable poncirus.

[kumin]

fructose, please check your messages.

[jibro]

My Flying Dragon has nice deep yellow color of the pulp this year and taste is also better than in previous years, but fruits are too small - 2,6 x 3 cm and weighs only 14g, so not much usefull.

[mikkel]

Oct 26, 2020 4:01:19 GMT -5 zap said:

Ilya: ?have you ever read about a Japanese germplasm repository, that has many Variety's of Poncirus? It was just mentioned in passing during a review of new Japanese citrus being developed. -but that was before I lost my Operating system in my PC.
Are Poncirus+ Neucellular? Can we just clone them by sprouting their seed?
And is Poncirus+ as cold tolerant as wild Variety's of poncirus?

UC riverside has Cleopatra mandarin x Poncirus... it is supposed bear in Nov. So less frozen fruits.

it is NARO.

You`ll find it here:
www.gene.affrc.go.jp/databases-plant_search_char_en.php?type=61