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Post by Marcin on Sept 29, 2019 3:38:36 GMT -5
These are my Nagami × Flying dragon hybrid seedlings. Four survived out of about a dozen. They show good vigour.
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Florian
Junior Member
Solothurn, Switzerland
Posts: 81
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Post by Florian on Sept 29, 2019 3:49:26 GMT -5
Looking good!
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zap
Full Member
Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Nov 22, 2019 18:37:57 GMT -5
They look healthy!
Supposedly if took generations for the Thomasville trifoliate cross to lose (some of) it's kerosene flavor.
Now you have something unique!
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till
Full Member
Posts: 157
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Post by till on Dec 11, 2019 1:40:27 GMT -5
Great! I read in Citrus Industry (or some article from Webber and Swingle?) that crosses between Kumquat and Poncirus are almost impossible. But you managed to do that! So once again it shows that we should just try. I am very excited to hear about the fruits you will get from these hybrids.
I had only some success in crossing Kumquat hybrids (Kucle, Calamondin, Limquat) with Poncirus. But what you did is really cool. I never tried Kumquat x Poncirus. I thought it did not work.
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Post by Marcin on Dec 13, 2019 10:53:54 GMT -5
Till, I too have read that kumquat-Poncirus crosses are difficult to make, and give weak seedlings. It's written in the article TWO IMPORTANT NEW TYPES OF CITROUS HYBRIDS FOR THE HOME GARDEN—CITRANGEQUATS AND LIMEQUATS by Swingle and Robinson, 1923 - I think that's the one you're thinking of. Also Dr. Brown had similar experiences (The hardy citrus of Texas, Part II, C.T. Kennedy). I agree, we should always try. Sometimes it's just a matter of right combination of cultivars. One Poncirus strain might work well with kumquat, and another one may fail.
In my experience this cross wasn't difficult to make and the remaining 4 seedlings are vigorous, growing stronger than either a kumquat or a trifoliate seedling. Three of them come from one Nagami cultivar, and the fourth (the shortest one in the photo) originates from a different Nagami cultivar. The pollen parent was the same Poncirus strain (Fd). They're 1.5 year old now.
I've seen your trifoliate crosses on another forum and I'm impressed! It's very interesting that some of them have mostly monofoliate leaves. There were a few monofoliate seedlings in my Reale x Poncirus crosses, but I thought it was due to polyembryony issues. Maybe as you say, this is caused by genes present in clementine (Reale is clementine x F. hindsii hybrid).
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Post by ilya11 on Dec 13, 2019 12:56:24 GMT -5
There were a few monofoliate seedlings in my Reale x Poncirus crosses, but I thought it was due to polyembryony issues. Maybe as you say, this is caused by genes present in clementine (Reale is clementine x F. hindsii hybrid).
Reale is triploid, it is giving both 1n(haploid) and 2n(diploid) gametes so the dosage of the genes responsible for triple leaflets will be diluted in the hybrid seedling coming from the fusion of diploid gamete with haploid cell of poncirus pollen. It seems that kumquats are sometimes giving higher ploid and aberrant aneuploid seedlings in the crosses with other species ( example )This could explain the presence of monofoliates in Till crosses.
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Post by Marcin on Dec 13, 2019 14:23:05 GMT -5
Yes, Reale is triploid and often produces aberrant seedlings. I found the photos of such strange Reale x Trifoliata seedlings. This one with thick leaves and serrated margins looks like a polyploid: Another unusual phenomenon is producing polyembryonic but hybrid seed. Here three seedlings emerged from one seed and they looked like nucellar ones. However, they later developed trifoliate leaves. I'm posting this just as a curiosity. None of these seedlings survived.
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Post by ilya11 on Dec 13, 2019 18:09:10 GMT -5
Another unusual phenomenon is producing polyembryonic but hybrid seed. Here three seedlings emerged from one seed and they looked like nucellar ones. However, they later developed trifoliate leaves. Indeed, multiple zygotic embryos from the same seed were observed in crosses of different ploidy
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zap
Full Member
Posts: 109
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Post by zap on Jan 2, 2020 15:05:25 GMT -5
Reale is triploid, it is giving both 1n(haploid) and 2n(diploid) gametes so the dosage of the genes responsible for triple leaflets will be diluted in the hybrid seedling coming from the fusion of diploid gamete with haploid cell of poncirus pollen. Diploid gametes can provide spare/extra genes, in crosses between incompatible species. Genomes mismatch and crucial genes get omitted during fusion, and later replication. Creating non viable offspring.
Perhaps diploid ova could "outvote" poncirrin production, and result in a more pleasant flavored offspring?
As long as the organism is healthy.
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till
Full Member
Posts: 157
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Post by till on Dec 29, 2021 16:46:27 GMT -5
Marcin, I am very happy that I have gotten twigs of your Nagami x Poncirus cross via Mikkel. I am looking forward to make my own expieriences with them. One question: How is the heat requirement of the hybrids? Do you have warm or even hot summer? I have the impression - rightly so or not - that Kumquat and Kumquat hybrids (except Calamondin) really need warm weather for some weeks until they grow. My Kucle and my Kucle x Poncirus hybrids only prospered under glas. My Fortunella margarita did not grow for a whole year when placed outside because every warm period was interrupted by one or two cool weeks. It did well, though, under glas. Fortunella margarita x Vainiglia sanguigno is in general slow growing. It seems to like heat but I never placed it outside so that I do not have a comparision. Now since Poncirus blood usually reduces the heat requirement it would be good to know how your hybrids behave. Are they late in spring as compared to Citrus and Poncirus? Do they need warm temperature for growing?
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Post by Marcin on Dec 30, 2021 5:10:48 GMT -5
Till, I'm glad that you have obtained the hybrids. Yes, from my observations these hybrids have long dormancy period, and start growing later than Citrus and Poncirus. This year new growth appeared about a month later than on Poncirus. That could be also caused by the fact that they were newly planted to the ground, and that we've had a cold spring. For example, this is the photo from 5th June this year.
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till
Full Member
Posts: 157
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Post by till on Dec 30, 2021 17:15:22 GMT -5
Thank you, Marcin! Then the influence of Kumquat is clear. We will see how that influences frost tolerance. Late spring frost should not be a great problem. We will see in a few years how fast the fruits get ripe, hopefully early enough.
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Post by tedburn on Apr 12, 2023 23:54:36 GMT -5
Hello Marcin and Till, very interesting this Hybrid. Any new infos to the further growth ? Hopefully flowering and fruiting will come early in the next years 😅. Regards Frank
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flos
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by flos on Apr 13, 2023 3:34:14 GMT -5
Hello Marcin, how well did they survive this winter?
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